Disclosures and Consequences
Disclosures & Consequences is a short-form real estate podcast that helps agents and brokers reduce liability, strengthen compliance, and prevent deals from falling apart due to avoidable disclosure mistakes. Hosted by California Realtor and real-estate risk specialist Jason Piske, each episode breaks down the forms, documents, and overlooked details that create the highest risk in a residential transaction, from the TDS and SPQ to HOA documents, permits, solar agreements, tenant issues, and more.
Designed for busy agents, team leaders, and brokerage managers, this podcast delivers practical, real-world guidance on how to navigate disclosures with clarity, protect clients, and avoid the lawsuits and disputes that often stem from rushed paperwork or misunderstood requirements.
Whether you oversee a team, train new agents, or simply want to run a safer, smoother real estate business, Disclosures & Consequences offers the insight you need to stay compliant, stay protected, and stay ahead of common pitfalls.
Because in real estate, what you don’t disclose can cost you.
Disclosures and Consequences
Episode 11 - Interview with Lenka Ilic
Most New York apartment renovation deals go sideways before demo starts - because owners are sold on “design build” when the law requires something very different. Architect Lenka Ilic breaks down why that buzzword can hide missing disclosures, one-sided contracts, and serious risk for anyone planning a renovation in NYC.
Jason Piske and Lenka unpack the real difference between professional design services, contracting services, and interior design - and why combining them into one “one-stop shop” can leave owners without an independent advocate when budgets, scope, and change orders start to spiral. Lenka explains why New York State treats residential design build differently, how misleading advertising creates confusion, and why hiring an architect first is often the safest order of operations.
You'll discover:
- What “design build” actually means, and why it is not the same as hiring an architect
- Why residential design build advertising is a problem in New York State
- How an independent architect protects owners during scope, bidding, and construction administration
- Why start dates, completion dates, and change order language matter more than most buyers realize
- How owners get trapped by contractor pricing before drawings exist
- Why a seemingly small project can trigger major cost overruns, delays, and code issues
Lenka shares real-world examples from Manhattan and Brooklyn, including how an under-$12,000 powder room detail turned into a surprise change order issue and why older NYC buildings make renovation pricing far more complex than most people expect. Jason also draws a sharp comparison to real estate disclosure rules, making this episode especially relevant if you work in property, development, design, or sales.
If you are planning a kitchen, bathroom, or apartment renovation in New York City, this conversation could save you money, time, and a whole lot of regret. Essential listening for owners, realtors, and anyone who needs to understand what should happen before the first wall comes down.
Apartment Renovation NYC is a specialized department of Lenka Ilic Architecture D.P.C.
Link 1: https://apartmentrenovation.nyc/
Link 2: https://apartmentrenovation.nyc/minimize-risk/
Link 3: https://apartmentrenovation.nyc/articles/how-to-spot-false-design-build-advertisement/
Disclosures and consequences. What happens when the fine print gets ignored? Hello and welcome back to another episode of Disclosures and Consequences. As usual, I am your host, Jason Piskey, and today I have a guest with me. Her name is Lenka Illich, and she's an architect in New York. And her situation is a little bit different than what I normally talk about. Her situation has to do with sort of after the close of escrow and the contracts that are needed between architects and general contractors. In particular, this is in New York City. But I still feel that it's very important for my listeners to hear because it does have impact, especially for the you realtors that are dealing with clients that are looking to do some construction after the fact. A lot of her insights are going to be very valuable. So with that, I'm going to introduce you to Lenka Illiots. Uh hello, Lenka, and welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01Hello, Jason. Pleasure to be here and thank you for the invite. The introduction was wonderful. Yes, as you mentioned, I'm an architect in uh New York City and practicing mostly in New York City, coloring Manhattan and Brooklyn. That's exactly correct.
SPEAKER_00Okay. Great, thank you. And you you reached out to me because you've you've got kind of a unique situation, at least for me, I'm on the West Coast, so for me it's a unique situation. But you've got quite a disclosure issue that you're that you're dealing with. And I think my my listener would be very interested to hear about it. So tell me more about what's going on.
SPEAKER_01So uh a brief uh commentary on my background. I've been practicing architecture for a while, and I worked in different companies prior to establishing my own firm with my partner William, who is uh partner in my life as well. I worked on uh different typologies of projects from uh US embassies to private residences to US DOT Ground Up Museum project to various renovation, rehabilitations, conversions, specifically in Manhattan. And after 15 years, uh I finally decided to uh establish my own practice, which happened in August uh 24. So now we are two years and a little bit of a change in our own existence. Very interesting uh patch to switch from working to someone to having your own company, and I think this is where we overlap in all sorts of uh disclosure when it comes to interpretations of rules and regulations that are applicable. So uh, unless you specifically are positioned at the level working in a in another company, I don't think many architects have as much detailed understanding on things that pop up as you're having your own practice. So in our brief call before this, in our intro call before the podcast, we touched based on what we would be talking about and what I have to disclose essentially for your podcast. And one of one of the topics, I think it's very powerful and uh as known in the industry, even among the peers architects, and I'm talking about New York City, that's where we practice, is this term that has been widely falsely advertised by various entities, and such term is design build.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So we're gonna be talking about design build, I think, mainly. So to put this in perspective, in short, what is a what is design build when someone says, and maybe some people purchasing apartments, purchasing properties, uh thinking of what their future renovation, investment, rehabilitation of their property would be, or it's maybe a ground-up single-family house or such. I'm sure many of them came across this term design build just by them going online to do their own basic research. And with that, no surprise, at least in New York City, many of firms advertise as design build. So to put this in perspective, design build as a term means a delivery method on a project. How a project would be delivered between an architect, the owner, and a contractor. So we all have widely different roles respectively. And design build essentially is a term that became a buzzword in New York on residential projects and specifically renovations in New York City, which is our actually, I forgot to mention it's our primary focus. So my company is called Lenka Illich Architecture, DPC, which stands for design professional corporation, and we have established a specialized department within our firm, which is apartment renovation NYC, and we are covering architecture and interior design. So this is what turned out to be uh this typology, apartment renovations turned out to be uh main uh main workload for us for the last uh two years since we opened the company. So now we are specializing in it. Right. So back to design build. Design build means that design, which would be architectural, I would I'm gonna rephrase it. Design in design build means design professional service. And I'm accentuating professional because that is architectural engineering design service. And in this use, in design build, it means architecture design professional service, architecture or engineering, and then the other part of the word which is design build build means contracting services. Someone is building what professional designers have designed for that specific project. So this delivery method implies, by its own terminology, implies that design services, again, professional design services and contracting builders services are offered under one contract to the owner. And therefore, an owner contracts with one and in one contract for both types of services, uh design, professional design, and building. So right.
SPEAKER_00So that's so so just to just to clarify, so you're saying that what what you do is just the design part of it, the architectural part of it.
SPEAKER_01Exactly.
SPEAKER_00But these companies that are doing the design build, they're trying to do it all under just one contract. You contract with the one company and they do both.
SPEAKER_01That's where the catch is essentially, and where the lack of disclosure has.
SPEAKER_00Oh, okay, go ahead. I'm sorry.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So a wider context is now that we know what the design build is, both services, both types of services, which are inherently different in their own licensing requirements, authorization requirements, educational requirements, and different inlayability requirements, insurance requirements. So those two services are so widely different. One is professional design, one is builder. So imagine an architect and a builder have widely different disposability and background. So if you have those, so those two services in design build are provided under one contract to the owner. And what is happening in the reality in New York City, and I still am a little bewildered that this is taking to such an extent and it's now been curbed more by the authorities having jurisdiction and agencies governing, but it's widely popular and it became it became a buzzword. It became advertising point to the point that such entities, advertising design build, are using this design build as their main branding coin, and as well how they align their how I would say business model. So this is what is happening in reality, particularly I'm talking about residential projects in New York City. The catches, the big catches, design built in New York State is allowed only under special legislative approval, and it is not allowed on residential projects. And I'll explain why. That's why the disclosure of or falsely advertisement is a problem. False advertisement is a problem, essentially. So, design built, to summarize, is professional design services, contractor services offered within one contract to the owner, very appealing to owners. If someone came to me and I don't know about the industry and the rules, I would say, oh yeah, I want one contract versus two contracts. Of course, you guys coordinate and you I sign one contract, how fabulous. So, but the catch is with such I would rephrase it, for a reason, it's not allowed on residential projects in New York State because that way there are no checks and balances employed on a project, which is so critical when you have uh a renovation project, not just because of the budgets, and they're pretty high in New York City. It's important for life safety, for the safety of the public, of tenants, or other neighbors. It's just like a matter is so sensitive in terms of that. That's why it's called professional design service, because you do need a professional license to design. It's not interior design, which you don't really need a license to practice interior design. Anyone can practice interior design. This is not to be mistaken for interior design, which a contractor can provide interior design services. There are no essentially requirements for an interior designer to provide services. Anyone can just call themselves an interior designer.
SPEAKER_00You're specifically talking about the design for like an actual renovation, not just changing the paint color on the wall, but actually knocking down a wall or or redoing an entire bathroom or kitchen.
SPEAKER_01That's where the line is. So right. So an architect needs to be engaged when there is a new partition in scope of work, when you're removing in New York City more than four 45 square feet of non-load-bearing partition as well. When there are changes to a floor plan layout, it triggers uh air and light uh code clauses, it triggers minimum habitable versus uh occupiable spaces. It's a lot of code triggered with the floor plan layout. So though for those changes, you would need an architect or an engineer. I'm talking interior design services such as decorative lighting, such as uh furniture, floor plan layout or such, or selecting a color or a tile specific and stuff like that. So, but back to design build, it's a very interesting concept. And I'm very happy that we can talk about this and bring awareness. It's so important to the owners that are um anticipating uh renovation. I think specifically New York City, but I think in general, owners should check on whom they are contracting with and what what specific services, whether those are design professional services, whether those are interior design services, whether those are contracting services, completely three different categories. So far we said that design build is not allowed on residential projects in New York State. Big question: why are so many entities, whether contractors, whether interior designers, whether another type of entity, advertising falsely as design build? They go as far as one-stop shop. We coordinate an architect, we have an architect in-house, we have an engineer in-house, we we do it all. You go to the Hamptons for a vacation, come back in six months, everything's gonna be done. It's it's such a marketing buzzy, false uh I don't know how to call it. It's just false. It's it's false advertising. So that's that's where the problem is. Why is it a problem? You asked me on our initial call. Why is that an issue? So the issue is an owner, an owner on an apartment innovation in New York City shall have their own independent architect or an engineer. Most times it's an architect, sometimes an professional engineer can take on that role as well. And that's so critical because we, as design professionals, advise owners on the scope of their renovation. On we advise them on preliminary preliminary cost of their renovation in relation to what could be built. So we can, if someone tells me I have half a million for a project, it's like, okay, we can do such and such, but if I see they're adding too much to the scope of work, it's my responsibility as their architect to tell them, well, it's it's exceeding. We should just be a little careful with adding scope, or let's increase the budget, or maybe consider these degrading some of the finishes or uh diminishing scope of work overall. Anyhow, so we are there to advise them on a scope of work and the construction cost. The critical point is when a falsely advertising firm, entity, person, lures a client, an owner, in a contract with them, that contract many times is incredibly one-sided in a favor of the firm that falsely advertises.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01So most times, at least in New York City, from my experience, those happen to be contractors, advertising how they are designed, offering design build services. Again, this service on residential projects is not allowed in New York State as a starting point. So it should not be even a mention of that term on residential projects to start with. Further, uh, design build would mean one contract for the whole renovation projects, but they do not go as far to really have one contract because that is actually legally complicated to deliver. So what happens is they lure an owner in such a contract because they say we have an architect in-house. Sometimes they do, sometimes they're not. Clarification right here. Having a licensed architect or an engineer in a firm working for the firm employed does not qualify their firm as an architectural or firm that can provide professional design services just merely because you have an architect employed. Because a company or it has to be at certain legal formation status and whatnot. So it's like way more complicated. Those things should not be simplified. So in this whole scenario, an owner contracts with uh an entity that falsely advertises design bill. They're losing valuable momentum and opportunity to have their architect as an independent advisor, which really is our duty, professional, ethical, ethical, and moral duty as a licensed architect. Like such as doctors, attorneys, they have moral duty. So we we are obliged by our profession. Now, what are we uh what are what is our duty? Our duty is to advise the owner. Also, we should one of one of the context of construction phase is for an architect to define construction phase administration protocols. And this is very critical because when you don't have where or when owners lose this moment of or an opportunity to have an architect and as an independent advisor in relation to the overall apartment renovation, in relation to what construction phase administration protocols should be incorporated in their future contract with the builder, things can go pretty much wrong, and they do go wrong many times. So some of some of um some of good practices that an architect shall advise their clients is again on those construction administration protocols. What are those protocols, practically speaking? That is, for instance, we should say, well, owner and contractor in their agreement should have start and completion date, which is linked to construction schedules, which we review. So my office would review a construction schedule timeline prepared by a contractor provided to me for review and approval on the owner's behalf. So imagine you are signing with design build company, you are told that there is an architect provided, you don't know who that is, you don't have many times direct contract with the architect. Sometimes those falsely advertising firms actually broker architecture services. So they put uh architects' fee in their fee, so they broker it essentially, they resell it. Big no. Architecture services cannot be brokered. It's an independent professional practice. I have nothing with a contractor. Legally, we don't have the same company, we don't have the same contract for apartment renovations. We are I'm essentially my role is to oversee their work installed for general conformance with contract documents. That's the critical point. And owners should use the privilege of having an architect to protect themselves.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01So owners end up with uh with those contracts that that are offered to them by such companies that falsely advertise. There is no start, there is no completion date, there is no construction schedule clause, there is no there's no mention of architect. They're ignoring the whole idea of an architect, which is the critical figure. So for instance, change orders, big deal. Everyone heard of the term change orders. Of course. Change order is it could increase the overall project's cost and extend the timeline radically. What my role is if I advise my client, please include construction administration protocols related to change order in your contract with your builder. I don't have a contract with a builder or with a contractor. We are not related in any sense. Owner has a contract with me, owner has a contract with the builder. But my role is to advise on construction phase protocols to be reflected in their contract with a builder. So I say, well, so change orders should be addressed, they should be reviewed by my firm against the contract documents and therefore commented back to the contractor. Contractor is there to propose a change order if there if they think there should be one. And it's called proposed change order. It's not immediately a change order. If we approve it and an owner approves it, it becomes and contractor, then it becomes a change order. But we all have to agree on it. So how do we review it? Means against our issued drawings. Those are contract documents. So I said, okay, this element wasn't included in the drawings, then maybe a contractor, maybe they have uh debt change order can be granted. But if it was included, they didn't price it, debt change order is essentially denied. So again, architects they're critical to review and guide the owner through the entire process. When there's no architect or a design professional, one with a spine with some morals and ethical standards, then this is just uh this is it becomes very chaotic. And the the worst is the owners learn about this during the construction phase, most of the time.
SPEAKER_00So the issue then is if if the design built company has an in-house architect that they're claiming that they have, and then there's a a change order, the in-house architect isn't necessarily going to be working on the client's behalf to make sure that everything is done.
SPEAKER_01Most most likely.
SPEAKER_00I mean, they the I'm not saying they won't, but they're the they've got a the architect then has a vested interest with the contractor.
SPEAKER_01With the company, because they're getting a lot of continuous load of projects from the contractors.
SPEAKER_00So they're and that could then be so so then if they it could be questionable.
SPEAKER_01It's not necessarily wrong, or I mean you're not we're not going to blame such architect.
SPEAKER_00Right. It it opens up the opportunity. It opens up a question.
SPEAKER_01If I was an owner, I would think twice. If that structure is but the the point is, again, as I said, like we are simple, if I'm trying to answer your question, but it the question is the question has different uh points where where design build is not allowed in New York State on residential projects at all. So that just like cuts the term out of equation to start with. The architect uh employed for a contractor doesn't qualify contractor's firm as a design bill. Nor if it did, maybe they can pick up on a government project where design build is allowed, but not on residential. So uh again, employed architect doesn't qualify contractor's company in any sense as a design bill. There's different regulations around it. So an architect employed for a builder or contractor, same thing, those are synonyms, essentially can just help them just just any other employee in their company, whatever task they give them. It doesn't elevate the status of their company in any sense.
SPEAKER_00Right. So the the the challenge then is is people that want to say do a renovation. Let's say they want to do a kitchen renovation in their in their house, and they contact one of these companies that offers design. Which technically they're not supposed to offer, but they do anyway.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_00So then they get under contract and they start spending money and they're they're fronting money and everything else, and then they find out after the fact that there's a problem and they need to hire an external architect. Now they're even further behind. They've spent money that they maybe shouldn't have.
SPEAKER_01Yes, the standard would be to retain an architect first, and for a simple reason, because an architect needs to develop the drawings and specifications. So the builders, two, one, three, can price the job for the true construction cost. Builder pricing a job, contractor pricing a job without drawings for construction is not true construction cost. And such estimate shall not be used as a basis for a contract between owner and a contractor. Because simply there is nothing to base their estimate on. If they don't if an owner hires a contractor first, who's preparing the drawings? If the owner, there's so many variations of scenarios, so you get me off the guard a little bit. But let me know, but let's go as an exercise. So if an owner hires a contractor, that simply maybe even doesn't advertise as a design bill, just a contractor. And in America, I think there is there is an impulse for people to maybe in Europe. I never worked in Europe. I noticed in America, New York City, perhaps in other states. I actually talked to another architect in in California. He says, Oh, yeah, uh, people get hire contractors all the time for us. It's just something that people want to get the price on immediately. But the owners don't understand that the price they're getting, based on a contractor walking their apartment and they're like, oh, I want to remove this wall, I want to put this here, I want this bathroom. That has many times no much connection with what truly the construction cost is, what truly is feasible layout-wise, what truly is supported by building code, by the in New York we have uh co-op condo building board requirements, which are could be fairly extensive. So you have that layer of regulations. So it's a lot of guessing. Um, and if it's very uh careful, it's very, I'm sorry, uh, it's very um how to say it's it's it's dangerous in a way to simplify this process and rather negligent, I would think, from anyone, contractor, architect, anyone, to assume a building is the same to another buildings are so similar across uh across the city. Or I did this project, did this building, it was one bathroom, one kitchen, this is gonna be in the same same price in another building. Buildings vary radically in New York City. I am still getting surprised after all those years working. Buildings are so different. Built differently, have different existing conditions, they have layers of people working over decades. We're talking hundreds of years, I mean hundreds of years, 200 years, over piling those layers of different traits. You sometimes you have to do a probe. Sometimes you just really need to do it's it's a lot of forensic work to the point that I can say, okay, I feel I did my diligence and that everything that was obviously available to me, I accounted for, and you know, we should do a probe here and there. So just just this like simplification and nonchalance, this just costs that much because I did something similar 20, 30 blocks down is it can, you know, it can pile up 50k, 20k, 70k, those those things can right.
SPEAKER_00That's that's real money.
SPEAKER_01That's not just and it's real money. Some people, many people, there are people that have a lot of money, but that doesn't mean they should be fooled. Uh people that are really on a tight budget are are going through pain, are going through pain because they're they're buying an apartment, they have they sold their previous apartment, they're planning to be moved at such and such, they buy that such and such dates for the amount of money spent on a project, and it turns out four months more and another 100k or 20k. It's it's a problem. It's it's a lot of money. What what if the owner doesn't have the extra money? What how are you gonna complete the project?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01It's not the same.
SPEAKER_00Right, and then they're in and then they're in a bind because they need to they need to figure out how to come up with this money. And the house may not even be habitable now.
SPEAKER_01No, no, many times. So many cases, uh, unfortunate, and they're very disturbing because I can feel the people's pain, but I can't truly help them because they signed this unfavorable contract with a contractor or with most times design-build entity that falsely advertised. People to a degree understand that they need an architect involved sooner than later on a renovation because they do talk to their neighbors, they talk, they Google it, they talk uh to uh their co-op or condo board, and they get early enough informed they do need an architect on a project. Some cases there are the contractor comes in and doesn't inform them then there is a permit needed or an architect needed. They demo, and then people in the building notice, then the co-op or condo board starts getting involved, and they call us. Oh, we need a permit. Okay, it's like tell me what would you like to do? Oh no, it's all demolished in this panic mode. So there are those cases, but most times people know they need an architect. However, them being sold falsely architectural services, either brokered architectural services, or uh another way popular in the city, which is uh which is unauthorized as well. So one is to broker services, that's unauthorized. And then one other way would be to many contractors sell this design build with the guise of we will recommend an architect or we will coordinate an architect. That's that's a very popular term. We'll coordinate an architect.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01I don't know what a contractor can coordinate an architect on specifically. I kept asking myself, and I didn't come up with a just trying to go from A to Z through my projects. When a contractor coordinates me, they have questions, I respond, they have substitutions of recommendations, I review, I respond. There's no much we we issue invitations to bid for contractors to price the job when we are ready with the drawing. So we coordinate the bidding phase on behalf of the owner. There's no much truly for a contractor to coordinate an architect, but they would advertise as such. And then they slide in this uh this uh introduction uh of an architect once once the contractor falsely advertising as design bill signs a contract with the owner. Once the owner signs and gives them the deposit, that's one foot into the mud, then they introduce an architect they work with, most likely. And that's such an architect, it's it's it's it's it's recommended by a contractor that falsely advertises architectural services. I'm gonna just end there and people can assume for a day.
SPEAKER_00So so you you you mentioned that they're advertising that they're design build, and then you also you sent me a screenshot, I'm gonna present it here now, that design build is actually not allowed in the state of New York. Like that's right, for residential projects that they're not allowed to advertise that they have design build. Uh there's very specific rules, and uh there's literally a law that anybody's watching this right now can see. So if there's a law and if they're if they're not allowed to do this, how are they doing it? Is there not a a somebody that's monitoring this or checking this? Or and and then if if not, then what what are the what are the potential solutions other than trying to get the word out through podcasts like this?
SPEAKER_01Right. I've been asking that question myself, and I have no answer.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01I have clues what factors contributed to this development, but it is really hard to comprehend that this is really taking to the extent that it is. If you do look up, anyone can do an exercise for themselves. Look up apartment renovation, design, NYC, anything related if you put apartment renovation in combination, and on the first page on Google search, mostly all of the companies ranking on the first page would be design-built advertising. So there is a problem because if Google gives you five to ten companies that call themselves design built, it's a little hard to believe it's not allowed.
SPEAKER_00So, like, so for me, I'm just thinking, trying to put this in perspective for me as a realtor in California. Yeah, if if I were to advertise something, they they have rules now regarding AI, like do altering a picture. So you you have a professional picture done of a house, and then you go through and you have AI put in furniture or whatever. We have to actually disclose that it's an AI created picture. Um which most people can tell, but AI's getting better and better. That you know, now now it could be seen as disingenuous, I guess, and and I and I can understand that, but we have to report back to our board, the the California Association of Realtors, and our our licenses are tied there, and we actually get self-regulated by other realtors. I've I've seen realtors that will call somebody out and say, Hey, you you know that you this should have been flagged as as being an AI picture and you didn't, and they they we literally rat each other out. Right. Is that so that's all handled through the Association of Realtors? It's all tied to our licensing. You know, we can get in trouble, we can get fines, whatever. It's even in our advertising, we have to include we have to include our license number and it has to be a certain font size and all all the normal rules and regulations. So I can't go through and say, Oh, this house has an ocean view, but the only way you can see the ocean is if you kind of stick your head out way far outside.
SPEAKER_01Reasonably right.
SPEAKER_00So how is it that there is no notice, how it's not flagged?
SPEAKER_01Right. It's a huge question. I have no answer, and I'm sorry that I don't have any answer, but again, the factors that contribute. So to put in perspective, NYSTD is the agency that regulates misconduct of professionals. And if anyone, if any other entity advertises falsely, which stands for New York State Education Department, that's the agency that issues professional licenses for various professions.
SPEAKER_00Okay.
SPEAKER_01So if someone sees false design build advertising for related to apartment renovations in New York City, it's not allowed on residential, it could go ahead and report. And I did report a few. Uh another thing is my obligation as an architect is the moment I know about it, I should go report it. On the other hand, so I don't understand if people don't know about this specific regulation because it's so widely spread as unacceptable or uh the the advertising is heavy and loud that it becomes the reality. It's almost brainwashing. NYSD is the regulatory agency that can process those claims of people that report such.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01Why why are they not coming out themselves? Are they not noticing? Actually, I asked them when I reported uh a few months ago, when I made the claim, I asked uh the head of he's based in Harlem. I forget what's exactly his title, but he's uh at NYS today, head of investigation or like department for architecture. And so I asked, okay, do you want me to report all of them? Shall I make a claim for all of them? It's a lot. As an individual, I can't do it, nor I want to convert my daily job in going one by one and searching. That's not my job. And they did say there is nothing that we can do at larger, like a higher level, larger scale. But if you would like, please go ahead and place claims for individual on individual basis, which uh I just have no resources. No, I think it would be uh wise for me to take on the liability or the action overall, right, as an individual. So that's that was their uh their stance. I don't know uh what to say. I mean, it gets even worse because, for instance, architectural digest, house, Yelp, I think, as well. I had to check on Yelp. I know for house and architectural digest for a fact, they uh have plenty of articles and some of the categories on the websites. I know house has a whole category design build. Architectural digest has a whole article 20 best design build contract. Uh sorry, uh 20 uh best contractors in New York City. When you go on the list, a lot of them are design build, even in the title of their firm. They're very proud of it. I just have no no it's very mind-blowing because the consequences are are sheer. They're they're high stake consequences. And on the other hand, when I explain to a client, when I start this conversation, when I have a new client, I put this, I lay this down immediately. And I say, okay, so we will assist with selecting a contractor. If you do bring to the table, they have the right to recommend a contractor. Obviously, they're contracting with a contractor for their project. And I do say, oh, if a contractor is not acceptable to us, we have the rights to terminate our services on our end. So if I see the contractor is heavily advertising, design, build, and he has this mindset of uh, you know, I am also an architect, sort of thing, or I provide architecture services as well, then I I truly don't want to engage with those environments and we withdraw normally from those occasions. And the reactions of clients is very interesting. Many of them don't they understand what I'm saying, explaining, but they are very hesitant to trust that. They have this very hard pushback with questions such as how exactly what you asked me, how so many design-built companies are then advertising specifically for apartment renovations in NYC. And the the sh the weight of so many advertising, and obviously that being the case, truly it takes a few rounds of my explanation, and then I show them show them normally on this uh screenshot from NYS CD rules, which in plain language explains, and you will share uh with uh with the audience on the screen, it says it's it's it cannot be advertised by contractors as architectural services being part of design. But so then eventually they start understanding and they're still confused. Why is it allowed? How is it not punished? Exact same same questions. But I don't know.
SPEAKER_00And maybe consumer Well, I guess if the NYSED isn't actively trying to stop it, right? That's the answer. It just becomes all the other contractors in the area, they they're just advertising like what they see from other people. And that's that's very common in the real estate industry as well.
SPEAKER_01Like you know, the way realtors catch each other in the concept.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and similar word uh verbiage and similar thinking, and it it's not much of authenticity, it's just all so it's not necessarily it it may not necessarily be a rampant attempt at being, I don't want to say fraudulent, but misleading. But but it there it's just so many others are already doing it, and since all these others are doing it, you know, a newer design company may be coming in and going, oh, we just advertise as design build, and that's what all these other hundreds of people are doing. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and major publications, uh the other industry platforms recognize it. So if you are not design build, almost something's wrong with you. That's right. Undertone.
SPEAKER_00And and that's actually that's actually the first thing that caught my attention when you when you reached out to me for this uh topic is I've heard design build, and I've I've seen clients of mine that have bought a house and then you know hired somebody to come in and renovate and everything.
SPEAKER_01Every state is different.
SPEAKER_00I understand, and I and I haven't taken the time to see the difference here in California yet. Yeah. But that's that's actually the reason why I want to be on this podcast with you today, is because the it is different in every state. And it does behoove people should check. It does behoove people to to take the time to check. But absolutely New York State, if if it's not allowed, it it definitely should cause people to Right. People to check.
SPEAKER_01At least to pause and to check, if anything. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And and your comment in particular about the start and stop times. Uh, you know, construction start and construction stop and scope of work and everything, that's that's such a huge thing that most people don't really because most people aren't they're not construction people and they don't know what they don't know about.
SPEAKER_01Which layout. They get so excited, and I love that they get excited, but there's this heavy technical and regulatory aspect of a project, and those renovations are not cheap. One bedroom can quarter million, two bedroom, half million. Those can easily pile up.
SPEAKER_00You you told me a story about somebody that wanted to do a powder room, and it was going to be over $11,000. Bring bring that one up because that's that's a fantastic story.
SPEAKER_01So here's a practical, yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01A highlight from practice. So we had a client that contracting contracted with the contractor prior to our engagement, which I didn't at that time it was one of early projects as we started the company. And I I could I didn't object that specifically as I have no specific reason to object the structure. They contracted with the contractor, one contract, they contracted with me, another contract that was clean. That was fine. And I never really was engaged in this programming phase for their project because they already locked in what they wanted to do with a contractor in terms of the scope of work and the price for construction costs they would pay the contractor. So I was not involved in that. My service wasn't providing advice and guiding them through those phases of a project. Okay. So it's like, okay, we will develop our um construction documentation, drawing set, and specifications for the project that we were retained for. And be involved, I I thought we would be involved in all the permitting and close construction uh phase, but so here's the here's what happened. The scope of work was proposing a powder, a new powder room on the ground floor of a co-op in Upper West Side from 1926, I think. It was like an older building. And that proposed powder room was above electrical meter room in the basement. Right. And so I walked the site and I told to the owner openly, well, this is rather a very specific situation. And well, let's let's see what how we can approach it. We get in touch with uh with the architect from the from the building management, and they were very collaborative, nice people. So we prepared a little feasibility study and said, Well, we would propose two layers of membrane. The first layer would be exterior grade, and we have this uh latocris, which is the most common uh second layer of uh waterproofing. So it would be a way thicker floor assembly than we are proposing. So we are essentially addressing this condition as a project-specific condition, like any other, but this one had own particular requirements. Uh not that it just was new, wet over dry area, but it was wet over dry area over electrical meter.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01And the building is old and it's in their concrete slab and it's like a lot of moving parts uh in the project. And we can approve that with a co-op and we developed this custom detail for the flooring, for the waterproofing. We spent quite a bit of time and energy. And and and I'm not involved with the construction cost. And so I hand those drawings to the owner. Here are our drawings, and I was like, Oh, thank you so much. We got approval, everyone's happy. And then in a week, we started getting a call from a contractor. Okay, what what I have no contractual relationship with them. Why would they be calling me now? And I said, Oh, but what are you doing? This is gonna be so expensive. There's gonna be a change order to the project, and for a small, tiny bathroom, it was 11,000. And the the high number or no high number depends on whom are you talking to, but it's a change order. Yeah, just for that extra waterproofing, right? And we haven't even started the construction, who knows if any concealed conditions or some other requirements on a project. So we truly put uh an owner in unfavorable position. They were such on a tight budget and planned carefully, and this was uh this was a surprise. And and I did ask a contractor, so and I asked actually the owner questioning the whole structure on a project, how they uh they organized to deliver the project. So I asked them, so how did your contract so if I think the owner realized what they got into eventually, but I asked them, how did you sign a contract for construction? With your contractor without architect's drawings, did you ask your contractor what did they price based on what? They had no drawings at that time because we were engaged way later. And unfortunately, it was situations that any owner should not be found in. And those are very predictable. Had you followed protocol and order of operation, you retain an architect, you develop the drawings, an architect uh assists you with bidding phase. So you have a few contractors ideally bid on the same scope of work or same drawings. So you have an architect reviewing their bids for uh for their qualifications for what the bids contain based on the drawings we issue, because the owners don't know how to interpret our drawings. So an architect there is speaking essentially on owner's behalf to a contractor. In in in good practices, owners should not have too much with uh with the contractor directly. They're having an architect speaking on their behalf, and this needs to be clarified in a contractor-owner agreement because if that's not clarified, uh a contractor can say, Well, who is this? I don't want to talk to these people. I have a contract with owner, you talk. It's right even though it's a standard in the industry for architects to talk to contractors, how would you talk to a contractor yourself? You don't have no drawing, you don't automatically you're lost.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01So, but it needs to be in in writing, it needs to be beforehand orchestrated and planned. But we again with false design build advertising, imagine you find a company that architecture digest put on there within first top five, and you're so happy you're getting a very good deal. And then all of this is happening. So and then we had also we also had not the best experience with with contractors, the owners on their own retained and brought to the project. It was very poor craftsmanship. Uh, they would not be interested really to collaborate with an architect. They would just build the comments were don't send her images, she's gonna ask questions. Like, no, I'm not going to approve if you don't send images. If I don't like, I need to see to approve. So all sorts of maneuvers trying to wiggle out. It was rather in a way, especially me coming from different typologies of projects, working for other companies. It was more uh of um uh government-based uh project typologist, more systematically organized and planned, and then smaller or small, I have a feeling smaller or renovation smaller project is more irregularities, or people think they can just get away with something, or owners are not as particular to have an attorney or to understand that they need an architect for a so it's just like I'm just gonna do a bathroom remodel. How hard can it be? Right. And then it gets really complex.
SPEAKER_00Right, exactly. Okay. Yeah. Well, this has been fascinating. I think it's it's definitely something that people should be aware of and need to need to take the proper steps uh before they get into, you know, f follow, like you said, follow the actual order of operations, the the the regular protocol if you can.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, good practice for standards.
SPEAKER_00Right. So many people watch, and and I'm this is not a slam on HGTV. I watch it all the time, but they watch HGTV, these flip shows, and they're you know, they're they're in there and they're like, oh yeah, they've got their contractor, and they're like, oh yeah, I can do this, and I can knock this well down, it'll cost you $25,000. Yep, yeah, yeah. That's that's TV. That's not real. I mean, there there's reality to it, but it they're they're not showing you that they've worked with an architecture that's closing that part. Right, exactly. So that's probably what helps to perpetuate this to a to an extent, I would imagine.
SPEAKER_01Many, many factors also. I don't think so. I think some of those people they advertise falsely are not even aware they do so.
SPEAKER_00I I don't think that they are. Like I said, I Yeah, no. I I know like like as a realtor, I I post stuff on my social media and and I've followed other realtors. I'm like, oh, I saw them do this, that was really clever, and so I'll do it, and then find out later, oh, you're not actually supposed to do it that way.
SPEAKER_01We we do we find out all all the time.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think I get a cold shower every two, three weeks for something. It's like I'm calling my accountant, calling my attorney. Oh, I'm good. It was fine within some limits. We but this is how you grow and improve. It's just normal if you have your own business. But the the whole the call context of major publications of NYS CD may not be as proactive. Consumer affairs departments.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_01It's it's a lot of agency that should protect the consumer. Because you know, what's advertised, you think it's somewhat it should be okay for you to go purchase.
SPEAKER_00I I agree. And it's just it's it's a larger goes to everything, yeah. You know, buyer beware, all that, just do your research. But I think that just getting the word out like this, I think it's very important. So I I definitely thank you for bringing this to my attention and for taking the time to to come on the show. Thank you. So I'm I'm gonna have all of your information in the in the show notes. So for those people that are listening, if they wanted to reach out to you for their projects throughout the state of New York, but in particular if if they're in Manhattan or or New York City, how do they get a hold of you and and your website and and all that?
SPEAKER_01Yes, definitely. All of you, please reach out. Any questions. We love educating the public, as you can tell. We put a lot of effort in such uh endeavor. You can find actually quite a bit of useful information and tips for uh people that are considering apartment renovations. I'm sure many of those tips are replicable to other states and locations. It is specifically for Manhattan and Brooklyn and New York City. The website is uh apartmentrenovation. There is an email which is hello at apartmentrenovation. Um we respond fairly quickly. If you have any questions, any doubts, we are happy to nudge you a little bit in the right direction.
SPEAKER_00I I like that nudge you a little bit. That's that's a good okay. Well, again, Linka, thank you so much for being on the show. Thank you. This was actually very educational. I'm I'm I'm very happy that you were here. Um I wish you the very best. Thank you very much. And if you come across if you come across any other things and you want to come back on the show to talk about it, or or if there's any other things. I'd be happy to have you back on, but uh thank you so much. This was this was a great uh great conversation. And and for those of you listening, thank you again for listening to disclosures and consequences. Uh again, I'm your host, Jason Piskey, and I'll see you on the next one.
SPEAKER_01Thank you, Jason. Bye, everyone.
SPEAKER_00Thank you.